I have been told tht the work to be carried out to replace my old system of heating would come to more than £2700,00 gov. grant and have been asked to pay an extra o£580 + before the work can be carried out. I cannot afford this by any means. but hasten to add that I was told it would not be fitted untill my contribution was paid in full. It would all be completed in one day, a new combi boiler set into my airing cupboard and the outlet would go thro the loft/roof.. thats it! no extra radiators no extra anything. For one days work I thought the price was rather steep to fit an 'ideal' combi boiler oh and new thermostat. I have heard of a few complaints as far as the work fitting etc was carried out at other needed homes and mentioned this to warm front. Unfortunately I was told to take it or leave it. I get the impression that warm front are keeping their own nest warm at ours and the governments expense. I have cancelled because I cannot afford it and I am waiting to hear what advice I get from the council. Incidentally my friends kitchen was in an awful mess when her heating boiler was replaced.. is there anyone out there who has had their heating done and was not happy with the service? Or are we just unlucky to have a team who are not up to expectations in our area. I really think we should speak out and not be compacent about this.. look forward to your replies.  Kathie

Hello Kathie
   We had our new boiler fitted a year ago via WarmFront.  It all came within the £2,700 and was all completed within the day.  2 guys were very efficient, polite, professional and hard-working.  They didn't leave any mess at all.  We got what we asked for, which was a modern condensing combi boiler placed where we wanted - in the loft. 
   I have been very, very pleased with the work that was done, and especially since we find that the new boiler using half the amount of gas - the heating control on the old one was bust and was using far too much gas.  Our gas usage has tumbled from £50 a month to £25 a month.
   I don't know what the extra £580 was for that you were asked to pay, but given that we were quoted anywhere from £3000+ for the same thing that we got for free, I ain't complaining.

Hello Margaret, thank you for your reply, it is nice to know that your heating by warm front is satisfactory and I am genuinly pleased because thats how it should be. I am suprised you were given a choice and got what you asked for. I was told that the combi would have to go into the airing cupboard which is in my bedroom and that i would lose all connection to the  shower in the bathroom. I was also told that sometimes the costs can be more than the grant and that we have to meet the extra costs. I was very complacent about the latter because being a terraced small 2 bed house I truly thought I too would be within the grant offered. I was disappointed at not being within that offer. (maybe costs have gone up since you had yours fitted last years) I too do not know what the extra £584.80 was for and when I questioned Iguana? warm front, they could not or maybe would not give me a breakdown of costs. However there are a few in this area who have not been happy with the work carried out and/or  the held to ransom, pay up before we fit attitude... and as I say, I cant meet the extra, so therfore cant have the heating and I am not going to ask for extra help to cover these costs. I have never made any claims in my life and not going to ask now. But I am glad that you are happy with Warm front - it must be the contractors or fitters they employ who let everyone down when jobs go wrong. It appears that it is just this area also.

Hello Kathie
   If I was you I would want to know exactly what the £584.80 was for.  It's possible that costs have gone up in the year - wages, materials etc - and the grant remains the same, £2,700.
   Before we knew we could have this grant - I'm on AA and that's how we got it - we'd had a few quotes from heating engineers locally.  One of them told us that the requirements had changed and it had to be a condensing-type boiler - I'd had a back boiler with fire, in the fireplace in the sitting-room, and that couldn't be replaced because it's not allowed now.  OK. One of the engineers who quoted for us insisted that the boiler would have to be hung on the wall in the kitchen.  'No', I said.  I have picture tiles exactly where they wanted to put it!
   We then thought, the loft is the best place for it to go.  But we wouldn't have been able to have a boiler in the loft if we hadn't already had flooring in the loft, a light, an electrical connection and a loft-ladder.  Luckily we had all those things. 
   We knew that if there was any extra to pay, it would have to be paid up-front.  I don't think it's a matter of being held to ransom, it's just how the system works.  For us, it all came within the £2,700. 
   We did have to have the shower connected separately, we got a local plumber to do that the following day (can't remember what it cost, but it wasn't a lot).  We use a shower rather than a bath - we had the bathroom re-done a few years ago and we have a proper shower unit instead of a bath (what with my hips and his knees, climbing in and out of the bath to take a shower was getting a bit dangerous). 
   The only thing to remember with the combi boiler is that if someone turns a tap on somewhere else - the kitchen for instance - and you're in the shower, the shower immediately runs cold! So you can only have one tap on at a time.  Can't put the washing-machine on until both of us have had showers.  But as there's only 2 of us it's not a problem.  We used to hear loud screams from next door when our neighbour was out washing the car and his wife went for a shower - same thing, the shower would suddenly go freezing cold! It's certainly preferable to having 40 gallons of hot water in the loft which has to be kept hot 24/7, when we mainly use hot water in the mornings.
   I am sorry that it's not going to be possible for you.  We really are pleased with it. 
   Best wishes,  Margaret

Kathie, please look at this: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=8034807#post8034807

You might like to be involved, given your experience.

Best wishes,  Margaret

I too have the same problem. They want £597 extra to replace my boiler and hot water cylinder.The new items are £855 but they can't do a days work for two men for less than £1000 EACH plus Vat per day . =£2,390 for one days work. When I had my boiler replaced 12 years ago it took under 3 hours..

Instead of warmfront helping pensioners it is creating millionaire plumbing firms. We used to have highwaymen to rob us now we have bold yeoman plumbers.There should be no option for us to contribute to their summer holiday. Either do the job within the grant or don't work for warmfront.

You could employ a couple of freelance plumbers for less than £500. Those working for a firm would get no more than £100 day.So warmfront is not protecting us against fantasy wages. And rogue traders.

We got the grant because we are poor, why is there any way we have to pay? What is going on when two blokes can't do my work of possibly 6 hrs for £1,845?  its only £300 an hour and that's not enough?  So i don't get my job done. Thanks warnfront for failing to help me.#

Warmfront work should be capped @ £75 an hour.Those firms getting more than half a million a year off us should be required to do 10% of jobs free of charge.

When they hear the word 'governent grant' they start charging thousands over the top. Plumbers should not be asking a thousand a day each plus vat. Its fraud and the government is being robbed of millions and we are robbed of our rightful heating so these greedy a******* can drive Bentleys.

From Alan

 

Your angry and bitter comments are perhaps understandable but won't get you anywhere regarding your heating problems.

I showed this letter to my husband who, although not a plumber, has had many years experience of quoting for work to be done and of employing workers.  Every time we have work done at home he accurately costs what the final bill will be, even when it's something as small as a garden wall! Here's his advice:

Go back to WarmFront and tell them you're unhappy with the quotation, and would they please arrange for another contractor to come on site and give you another quotation. 

We got our job done between 8 am and 4.30 pm the same day, but only because 2 guys worked very hard.  We couldn't be more pleased with what they did and we passed on our positive comments to their firm and to WarmFront.  They didn't leave any mess at all, either. 

I didn't get my grant 'because we are poor' but because I get Attendance Allowance.  That's not a means-tested benefit, so you don't have to be poor to get it.

However, I sympathise, but suggest you get on to WarmFront and complain to them.

Best wishes, Margaret

Further to my reply earlier, you seem to know for certain what skilled and experienced heating engineers - not plumbers - would actually cost for this work.  Not in our recent experience.  Before I qualified for AA and then for this grant, we had at least 3 quotes for the same job - replacement boiler.  The quotes varied between £3,000 and £3,500 - exactly the same as we had done eventually via WarmFront and within the £2,700 grant.  With this experience we fully expected to pay extra, but weren't asked to.

It's often thought that installing a new boiler to modern requirements in a small terrace house should be easy and straightfoward. This may not be the case - in a terrace house you'd have to have the emissions pipe on the back wall, you only have that one wall where it can go.  In a semi bungalow like ours,  we had the side wall and the back wall it could have gone through. Care has to be taken that it doesn't face the neighbours' window because that's dangerous.

New regulations are coming out all the time and heating engineers, along with other professionals, have to stick to them and constantly update themselves.  Also I'm told that the cost of copper piping at present is astronomical.

All of which means, it's worth asking questions and requesting another contractor to visit on site, as I said before.  You could of course get a couple of independent quotes from local heating engineers and compare what their quotes might be.  Ranting about highway robbers driving Bentleys is not going to get you anywhere. 

In 1994 I lucky to get a council grant to rebuild my house that was collapsing at the front. I employed 7 different tradesmen some of whom did work that all had to be done again. What should have cost £20,000 ended up costing £38,000. Costing me £12,000 that I am still paying for, because of  the way some builders con their customers.  I hate lying, fraudulent ,tradesmen who ruined my life.

There is a sickness in the building trade where they can't do fair days work for a fair day's pay. Look at Wembley Stadium over a year late :millions over budget.

I don't really worry about myself, just fragile vulnerable pensioners being robbed of their savings by greedy overcharging plumbers.It must never cost those pensioners who still have meagre savings, everything they have.     I am sure that creating millionaire plumbing firms was not meant to be the purpose of warmfront grant money from the government .                        

Like a reputable franchised garage , defra should have a set  list of  job prices to stop millions going to waste in building fraud.

The materials are supplied by ega so plumbers  can't do their usual ; triple what they paid in the plumbing shop. £855 is what parts cost. But £1,845 is not enough for two men to do six hours work? When they want £1000 each plus vat, don't you think that they are asking for  unrealistic rewards?       I don't know anyone who asks for a thousand a day plus vat.    Cap labour cost at not more than £75 an hour. £690 a day including VAT.       Like a Mercedes garage. If you don’t set a limit, of course they will charge as much as they can get away with. The Office of Fair Trading must step in to prevent the abuse of gross overcharging that prevents the warmfront scheme from working to benefit old and ill pensioners like myself. Just allowing plumbers to become millionaires is not a legitimate use of defra money.

Tiptoeing round the impracticable blackmailing demands of greedy  plumbers is just making matters worse. Poor pensioners being told to pay 500 to 600 pounds or no work? Isn’t it suspicious that it is always more than £500 they want? This is theft disguised as plumbing.

Time it was stopped.

from Alan

 

I am getting fed up complaining and getting no where !  In July 2007 we had our new combi boiler fitted courtesy of WarmFront .... the workmen were not the most efficient I have seen and certainly left mess behind. They also took our gas fire, back boiler and water tank without asking if we wanted them ( which we did) they didn't put any dust sheets down - unlike the crew who installed next door's boiler, and took 2 days to carry out the work. They also managed to blow our electrics probably because of having all their drills and even a wireless plugged into our sockets. We still have an ongoing problem which they are supposed to be sorting out. Every time I phone the installers and leave messages I am told the message will be passed on - but I have yet to get a reply and that is between July and now January !! Phoning WarmFront does absolutely nothing and when I asked for the inspectors phone numbers I was told they didn't have them !! I am expecting these installers to crop up on 'Rogue Traders ' one day! They came from Billingham and we live just between Sunderland and Durham - couldn't Warm Front have ap[pointed local plumbers .... I am now considering writing to my local MP ..... Val

Hello Val
   I would suggest that you DO write to your local MP, write to your local councillor, write to your local paper, 'name and shame' the contractor who did your work.
   We are at the opposite end England from you (south-east Essex near the Thames Estuary) and, as you can see from my earlier posts, our experience has been the very opposite of yours.  We couldn't be more pleased with all that was done, and the way it was done.
   We also had a back boiler and there was no need to remove it, just disconnect the gas supply to it, leaving a gas supply to the little gas fire in front, in case we ever needed to use that (which we almost never do). The copper cylinder with header tank was taken away for recycling, but the old water tank is still up there - no need to remove it, just empty it. 
   Dust sheets were put down on the hall carpet, although the first thing we did after the new boiler was installed was to replace the hall carpet - we've now finished with workmen coming in and out, nothing else to do, so I planned to replace that old carpet anyway.
   Write to WarmFront also - no point in phoning them.  Although, every phone call is logged.  Have you had your work inspected yet - that's when you can present a list of all that went wrong.
   I don't understand about 'they managed to blow our electrics', that's the only bit I really don't understand. 

Hi Margaret - well I have written to WarmFront a couple of times - no reply !! I finally got in touch with the inspector who came out to visit and brought with him one of the plumbers who had installed it  !!!  I think there must be some back handers going round ... he also knows there is work to be finished but just keeps saying 'I will get in touch with them'     ....  when they do finally come I think I will demand they put my gas fire back ..... if they ever come round that is ...

This failure to come back and finish is typical of builders behavior. It seems they have already been paid and want to move on to do the same to the next vulnerable pensioner.

You could try the defra website to complain about ega. This my latest message to them. Even though my local council have offered to pay the 'contribution' I don't want this abuse of pensioners to continue.

You could try putting in a claim for your  missing backboiler etc through the small claims court.That might get them back.

I'm told that 'coldbusters ' is a better option and a bigger grant.

 

I worry about those who don't have a computer and are just being prevented from benefitting from the grant because of plumbers greed.

 

To Warmfront/ega

You know I called your customer service centre and was told that if I don’t pay DAWSETWAY £697 up front, they would cancel my work. This is blackmail when I got the grant BECAUSE I AM ON MEANS TESTED COUNCIL TAX BENEFIT.

Of course this ‘money up front on grant work’ is something from the cowboy’s book of how to be a builder. It’s because they have to wait for their money. I think that this £597 is the correct labour charge for 6 hrs work @£90 an hour. The job should be priced at  £1,452 including £855 for materials.Not £3,225. 1,000 pounds a day per man plus vat is an outrage. Its barristers fees.

There has to be a limit to labour costs or more pensioners will be robbed of their savings. £2,000 for 6 hours work is attempted robbery. Plus 17.5%VAT not the 5% specified?

If ega are not limiting this abuse of thieving labour charges; more grannies will lose  their savings + more pensioners will be stopped from having their work done.

It must not be builders who benefit but those IN FUEL POVERTY. Otherwise the most vulnerable with no savings like me can’t benefit.That is fraudulent misdirection of government money.

EGA HAS TO STOP IT.

hi katie,same problem boiler,rad.and wire free room stat came to £960.00 labour £2,200 for no more than 24 hours work for one person thats £700.00+ per day somebodys getting very rich out of the warm front sceem,been in touch with the mand been told that they use a blanket priceing policy all jobs are priced the same for a boiler,or a radiater,etc,asked if we could use our prefered corgi registered plumber who can do the job for £1,500.00 all in labour +boiler,rad,and wire free room stat but have been refused,contacted our local MP and he has wrote to Phill Woolas MP reponsible for warm front at the Department for the envirnment,food and Rural Affairs (defra).when he comes back with a reply I will send it,the people that I have spoken to at warm front don,t consider £700.00 or even a thousand labour costs per day unusual.but  for the  people that this grant is aimed at it is beond understanding ,yours faithfully David

Hi David
   If you can get this job done for £1,500 then I suggest you go ahead and get it done - it would be a bargain, even if you had to do it on a loan, it would still pay for itself.
   I can't actually understand how all this work can be done by one guy working alone.  Nor can I understand the price you've been quoted.  As I said before we'd had 2 or 3 previous quotes and not one of them was anywhere near £1,500 - they were at least double that!
   We had 2 guys and they both worked hard for a whole day - I can't see how one would have done it alone. At least the final hour was in flushing the system, back-flushing it, checking for leaks on all the radiators (we have a mix of some old and some new) and explaining the system to us, how to set it, how to alter settings etc and finally leaving the site clear of any mess (not that there was much).  I don't know if ours took more work because we wanted the boiler put into the loft (which one man said wasn't possible, wanted to put in in the kitchen, and another man said the loft was the ideal and obvious place for it, so they don't always agree!!)
   I know that some people say 'it's only a 2-bed terrace' and think it will be easy and straightforward because of that, but when you think about it, there's one less wall to put the emissions pipe and that may be LESS easy than in a semi. 
   Poor Phil Woolas MP, according to a news item this morning he's in trouble over something else, completely unrelated to DEFRA or WarmFront, so his mind may be on his political survival at the moment!
   Isn't there ANYONE else out there who's had this done and is pleased with it, or if they are, don't they feel like standing up to be counted? We couldn't be more pleased with having saved £2,700 and paying less for gas consumption - about half what we were paying for on the old boiler with the jammed heater control. 
   Margaret